Towards the end of the fourth book of The Republic Plato examines the nature of personal power and control. He uses the analogy of thirst to help illustrate the ways in which our appetites function. Through analogy he states that desires in their most basic form are unqualified and are only desires for their object. Plato states, “And for a particular kind of drink there will be a particular kind of thirst. But thirst in itself is the desire not for a lot or a little to drink, or for good or bad drink, or, in a word, for any kind of drink at all, but for drink pure and simple.” (439a). He is using this as a counter example to a rebuttal that could be posed to him that, “And we must beware of letting ourselves be taken off our guard and upset by the objection that no one simply desires drink, but drink that is good for him,…”(438a). Plato is illustrating through his defense that basic desires are unqualified that they are neither innately good nor evil. A desire or appetite is merely an occurrence and is not something which can be prevented from surfacing. In Plato’s eyes the ability to take control of one’s self is not by learning to move beyond desire but rather to see that it is properly dealt with by the force of our spirit.
Spirit is the intermediate part of our soul which which allows our reason to manifest itself and to combat our desires. While many would argue that the desires are the root of all emotion, Plato would state that spirit is what allows reason to manifest itself emotionally. This is not to say that spirit is purely a derivative of reason, rather that spirit is something which empowers the reason to rule.
Perhaps the most important part of Plato’s argument is the way in which he emphasizes that the natural state is an unjust one. He argues that, “And this concord between them is effected, as we said by a combination of intellectual and physical training….”(441e). Without the training Plato implies that desire would be able to take control and we would lose our rational self control. He even directly states that appetite is the largest and most unruly part of the soul, and that only through the cooperation of reason and spirit can it be dominated.
Plato wants to move us away from a state of nature into a kingdom of the intellect. His motives are clearly demonstrated throughout The Republic. It is very clear throughout that Plato is attempting to guide us towards a world in which our animalistic natures are almost completely dominated by the strength or our will and the power of our spirit. This complete subjugation of desire is the ideal state which allows us to be in complete control of ourselves.
-Eric
Very good points Eric, I especially like your insight about Plato's goal to move us from our natural state (since he thinks we are naturally unjust) to a "kingdom of the intellect."
ReplyDeleteHowever, I think you can take this argument a lot further...what are the implications of Plato's argument? Is freedom bad because it allows us to give into desire and therefore be unjust? How does this fact about humans naturally being unjust affect your views on power and power structures? Perhaps you could argue that the most just (I was tempted to write 'justiest' :D) form of power is one that "forces" people to learn to use their reason, aided by spirit, to overcome animalistic desire and therefore create a better world.
Also, you repeat phrases such as "plato wants..." "plato says..." "plato's argument is..." Since we have all read the passage, and we all know what the assignment is, no need to constantly remind us that you are summarizing Plato's argument. Phrases like that make your writing less coherent. I challenge you to use his arguments as a foundation and a vocabulary for you to make YOUR arguments. -Dan
Dan,
ReplyDeleteI do agree the argument could be taken further but i didn't wish to twist what Plato was trying to say. I imagined the purpose of the assignment was to analyze Plato's points rather than prove our own. However i could be wrong...
you used the same ideas of desire and thirst to prove an entirely different point than i tried to make eric! the places where i choose to disagree with you are those in which you say that Plato does not see that self mastery coincides with the prevention of desire. when Plato says
ReplyDelete"there is one element in our minds that bids them to drink, and a second which prevents them and masters the first" he illustrates these two elements in detail later in the passage by saying,
"we can call the reflective element in the mind the reason, and the element with which it feels hunger and thirst, and the agitations of sex and other desires, the element of irrational appetite."
plato states that the element of reason and prevention leads to the mastery of the element of desire and irrational appetite. instead of saying that they should let desire remain, he says that desire should be mastered by using reason and prevention.
your ideas are very clear though, and i am almost convinced you are right. next time you should consider more degradation of the opposite view in order to clarify your own.
Miles,
ReplyDeleteYes desire certainly should be mastered but that doesnt mean it has to be gotten rid of completely. The idea is that for either an individual or a state to function properly all of its parts must be in balance. Using the analogy of the state desire is the lower class. It is an integral part of society. Without the guidance of Guardians and Auxiliaries the society would devolve into a collection of peasants as opposed to a state. As i mentioned above If left in a sate of nature desire is the most powerful of the three parts of the soul.
"When these two elements have been so brought up, and trained and educated to their proper function, they must be put in charge of appetite, which forms the greater part of each man's make-up and is naturally insatiable. They must prevent it taking its fill of the so-called physical pleasures, for otherwise it will get too large and strong to mind its own business and will try to subject and control the other elements, which it has no right to do, and so wreck the life of them all."(442a-b)
The key to self mastery is balance.
Eric,
ReplyDeleteI think your last comment to Miles summarizes your argument quite nicely ("the key to self mastery is balance") but I wonder if your earlier points might actually highlight something else worth noting. Do you think that Plato really wants us (ultimately) in the world of the Republic to have uncontrolled desires? Wouldn't the Republic function in its most optimal state if we all only wanted what we needed? If you think about the parallel to the jobs... we are happiest and at our best when we are doing the job we should be doing (the one that is simultaneously best for us and best for the city). Do you think that you can make an analogous comparison to wants/appetites? I very much liked your points:
"It is very clear throughout that Plato is attempting to guide us towards a world in which our animalistic natures are almost completely dominated by the strength or our will and the power of our spirit. This complete subjugation of desire is the ideal state which allows us to be in complete control of ourselves."
When you use a phrase like "complete subjugation" it seems that you are leaning toward a world not of balanced appetites but of submissive ones.... Just a thought.
Well written and argued. Nicely quoted.
Elise,
ReplyDeleteI think i am not being clear enough in trying to state what i mean. When i say balanced i do not necessarily mean equal at all. One thing i that i think would be important to note is that it is impossible to move beyond desire. As humans our appetites are simply too strong to be entirely controlled. My argument certainly needs some work and i am still developing in my own mind.
I do not believe that in the world of the Republic uncontrolled desires can be allowed to exist if the state is to remain whole. It is important to use our reason and spirit to bring these desires under control. Then i believe that reason and spirit must structure desire in more constructive ways. I do agree with the statement that it would be best for the Republic if everyone were to desire only what they needed. In its optimal state this would also include the desire for what the state needed. That is the way in which i think Plato is urging us to structure our minds.
I do agree that the subjugation of desire and spirit are core principles in Plato's journey to a just individual and nation, but it don't think that the complete subjugation is necessary. The use of both of these elements is important in the functioning just nation, controlled by reason yes, but not vanquished from the city. It is the interaction of all three elements that causes the wisdom that Plato describes in 435b.
ReplyDelete