Plato says that there are three parts of the soul: the desiring, the spirited, and the calculating. He says that “the one within whom each of the parts minds its own business will be just and mind his own business” (441e). Each part of the soul minds its own business by ruling when it is most likely to do justice, and being ruled obediently when it is most likely to do injustice. Since the desiring part of the soul is “surely most of the soul in each” (442a), and since when it is fulfilled it means the end of moderation, it is the most likely of the parts to do injustice. It must thus be ruled over by both the calculating and spirited parts of the soul. Since the calculating part is “wise and has forethought about all of the soul” (441e), its business is to also rule the spirited part, although the two should work together. The man in which each part of the soul does its business, ruling or being ruled correctly, will master himself and achieve justice.
Plato suggests that the justice in ones soul does not only reflect the justice in a city, it is essential to it. When one is just inside, he contributes to a just city. The calculating part of the soul reflects the philosophical people in a city, but that calculating soul itself is also crucial in the city’s justice; Plato dubs those with it rulers and guardians. Each part of the soul shows itself in the city; the people with dominantly spirited souls are warriors, the people with dominantly desiring souls are the normal people who need to be lead. Plato argues that a just city has the correct balance of all three parts, and so does the man who has mastered himself and achieved justice. In order for the just city to have the three types of people, however, it needs men who have the three parts to their souls. A city cannot achieve justice, then, without people who have organized these three parts correctly: people who have mastered themselves.
-Kathryn D
I just realized that I didn't cite some of my quotes.
ReplyDeletethe first quote is from 441-e
the second is from 442-a
Sorry!
-Kathryn
I was a little confused by the sentence:
ReplyDelete"In order for the just city to have the three types of people, however, it needs men who have the three parts to their souls."
Because doesn't Plato state (just as you do earlier) that each man has each of the 3 aspects within his soul? This seems a little contradictory to me.
Overall an excellent post. I especially liked how you explained how each of the traits of the soul panned out into regular society (the guardians and the regular people), that brought the divides of the soul into a different light to me.
Julia,
ReplyDeletethanks for pointing that out, you're right. I think what I meant to say is that the fact that there are three different types of souls is essential not only to the man, but to the city, where each type of soul manifests itself in a person (the desiring the average man, the spirited the warrior, the calculation the guardian)who is an important part of that city.
I really appreciate how the blog can be used to sustain an intelligent conversation...
ReplyDeleteKathryn,
You've done a nice job here in succinctly summarizing some of your primary positions to this argument. I would ask a similar set of questions of you as I am asking of many others (I'm reading from least to most recent).... what is justice? Who gets to determine its boundaries?
When you say: "A city cannot achieve justice, then, without people who have organized these three parts correctly: people who have mastered themselves" what do we do with the people who haven't? (Also, careful with agency... how can a city "achieve justice"?)
Kathryn,
ReplyDeleteI love this post. It is very clearly written and it clarifies Plato's points for me.
I especially like how you explain why the calculating part must rule over the others, with the spirited still higher than the desiring. The way you describe it makes perfect sense.
I have two clarifying questions for you, similar to what you asked of me and what Elise and Julia have asked of you.
1) The minding your own business part. I understand that you might not want to dwell on this, but if you are looking to clarify something, I would look here.
2) You argue that self-control leads to justice and a just city. I'm curious about how this internal justice manifests itself in actions, leading to the just city.
Good job! I like how you had a clear argument and your response was succinct, clear, and interesting.
I liked what you said and I appreciate the questions about justice and how that gets determined, but I have a different question for you to ponder: how do dysfunctions of the soul relate to the dysfunctions of various states. What creates injustice (misuse of power) in the state and in the self?
ReplyDeleteThank you all for your comments. I see two main categories of questions here; the first is about how the workings of the soul manifest themselves in the city, and the second is the question of injustice- where does it come from? Who are the unjust? What should be done with them? I think that the two are very related.
ReplyDeleteFirst, I want to talk about the manifestations of the soul in the city by looking at the predominantly desiring, greedy soul. The desiring part of the soul is the part that craves. It can want food and drink, it can want money, it can want power, it wants. In a completely just man, the desiring part of the soul is checked; it hardly shows itself, and so the just man does not feel compelled to go to extreme measures to get his hands on valuables, and in this way he stays away from unjustly taking what is not rightfully his. There are, however, people who embody the desiring part of the soul, people who have souls filled with the desiring part. The man whose soul craves wealth and what does not belong to him will be greedy and take it. How could he not? His soul is unchecked; it rules his body, his person, his life.
This man exists- he is everywhere- but what is his position in this so called just society? I think that Plato is saying that, like the soul that should be checked, this man should be controlled and ruled. He should be in the lowest class- the poor worker, the robber, the man who is controlled by those around him. Plato recognizes that some people who do injustice do unjustly rise to power, but he says that these people are eventually punished and reduced to the lowest quality of life. If not, he says, they will certainly experience the lowest quality of afterlife. These “unjust” people do belong in a city. There always is a bottom class, a people to be ruled. Like in the just, predominantly calculating soul, though, the desiring part needs to be controlled.
Kathryn, this is an incredibly articulate and thoughtful response. Very interesting.
ReplyDeleteI especially like the parallel you draw between checking the greedy parts of ourselves and limiting the greedy members of society.
Also, to call the "desiring" part of our souls "greedy" puts it in a new light and clarifies your argument.