Re-read the following section of Plato very carefully:
Book IV: 434 - 445 (from 434 to the end of Book IV)
What is Plato saying about self mastery, or our power over ourselves?
Post your 250-500 word response to this question to the blog.
Comment thoughtfully on the posts of at least two of your classmates.
Do all of this before class on Tuesday 9/7.
One of Plato’s primary criticisms of democratic government is that politicians are continually distracted by their own desires, and therefore tend to mislead the country. Too often, politicians prioritize their own interests over those of the community. Ideal rulers are those who are “most likely to devote their lives to doing what they judge to be in the interest of the community”(113). In other words, the ideal ruler has complete control over his actions and his desires, and is unable to be lured by glory, power, wealth or other personal gain. Self-control is completely necessary for a just ruler, and is ideally a characteristic of everyone in the community.
ReplyDeleteIf a man is able to “maintain in all circumstances” (155) the values, integrity and principles they learned in their education, then he will do the community the greatest service. To maintain anything in all circumstances requires significant self control. And, as service to the community is a good act, it can be inferred that Plato views self-mastery as a characteristic that should be admired and even expected of mankind. The perfect state, Plato writes, will “obviously have the quality of….self-discipline”(131). The perfect citizen then, should also have such qualities.
Plato goes on to say that a man’s self-mastery will benefit himself as well as his community . Citizens possessing self control “may be expected to be of the greatest service to the community as well as to themselves” (115). Not only will they themselves benefit from their community service, but they will gain happiness through their unselfish efforts. Plato clearly believes that self-mastery is the path to excellence. As the individual masters himself and strives to place the community’s will above him own, he will approach the characteristics of an ideal citizen.
Emma-I think your argument here is very effective, and very compelling. You make two excellent points, the first about what makes an ideal ruler and the second about what makes an ideal citizen. I think you could strengthen your argument about how "a man’s self-mastery will benefit himself as well as his community." This is crucial, and to be honest I don't think you quite prove this part. You state that someone will "gain happiness through their unselfish efforts," but what do you really mean by this? Is seems vague and not very well backed up. Something to think about... Plato says just acts generate justice, and that justice is harmony between the three parts of the mind. Perhaps this could be the basis for your argument. for how benefitting the community benefits ones self. Overall, great work! This is very impressive. Senior Seminar 2010, onward! -Dan
ReplyDeletePlato reflects on the idea of desire and the mastery of desire, he demonstrates an argument about how a man has a simple desire to drink, and when he succumbs to this desire he does not achieve self-mastery or self-control. However a man who uses his reason and prevents his own urges and desires achieves his own self-control and self-mastery. “There is one element in our minds that bids them to drink, and another that prevents them and masters the first.”(Plato, P.147, sec. 439c) if one cannot resist their own desires, they are unable to achieve self-mastery.
ReplyDeleteHe makes another interesting point that there are two contrasting elements in the mind, one that uses reason, and one that associates with satisfaction and pleasure. When a person only uses the element that involves pleasure and satisfaction, they are following their shallow and trivial desires, which ultimately will only decrease their self-control and empowerment. A person may indulge in desires moderately but in order to achieve self-mastery they must indulge in reason more frequently than desire, “treat your body well, but don’t pamper it excessively” (The Tao, Sec. 13).
Plato was trying to say that if one fulfills all their desires and acts purely based on pleasure and satisfaction, they will not achieve self-mastery or gain power over themselves. However if a person lives their life filtering out their desires and using reason to choose which are the most necessary, they will gain self control and be able to have complete mastery over themselves. It is always more fulfilling to live in moderation and reason rather than in desire and pleasure.
Miles- You and I clearly share a similar understanding of this aspect of The Republic. However, I question your statement that the citizen "must indulge in reason more frequently than desire" to gain self-mastery. I would argue that Plato frowns upon ALL self-indulgence (and desires), even seemingly moderate amounts. I have yet to read a passage in The Republic that mentions any amount of self-indulgence as acceptable.
ReplyDeleteYour post later states that a person "filtering out their desires and using reason" will gain self-control. This seems more consistent with Plato's argument. Good work, Bon! -Emma
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteJust as one city is made up of three parts, one man is also made up of three parts. Plato argues that in each individual these parts are the calculating, desiring, and spirited classes. For an individual to be the master of himself, the three parts must be in harmony, with the calculating part ruling over the desiring and spirited parts. This harmony creates justice, thereby proving that true self-mastery produces a just individual.
ReplyDeleteWhen an individual “sets his own house in good order and rules himself; he arranges himself… and harmonizes the three parts” (Plato sec. 443d), therefore becoming the master of himself, and only then, when “these two, thus trained… will be set over the desiring” (Plato sec. 442b) can he act justly. Without the rule of the calculating portion over the desiring and spirited parts, a man can be overwhelmed by his desires or emotions and act in an unjust manner, as he is not in control of himself.
Similarly, in a larger scale, the separate classes doing their own work and “each of them minding its own business in a city – would be justice” (Plato sec. 434c). The path to self-mastery and therefore justice within an individual is reflected back onto the scale of a city, serving as a reminder that personal and social power are mastered and projected in the same manner, yet on different scales.
On the contrary, when one establishes a “relation of ruling… contrary to nature” (Plato, sec. 124d-e) he creates injustice, and allows the “three classes in the soul meddle with each other” (Plato, sec. 443d). Whether on the personal or social level, the three classes must not meddle with each other and attempt to do the jobs of the others, but rather work harmoniously together to create justice.
Natalie, Emma and Miles -- good work thinking through a very difficult concept and question. You all do a nice job incorporating the text into your argument and using Plato's words to support your own ideas. It seems that you all are doing well reading into the complexity that is our souls (at least as far as Plato sees it). We will certainly be pushing on these ideas further in class. Having this background will certainly help you to contribute in a meaningful way to the discussion.
ReplyDeleteDan and Emma (other Emma? i'm confused) -- great and thoughtful comments that did not just provide positive feedback but also provided a way to push the thinking further.
Oh, and next time.... write your response to the assignment as a blog post in and of itself. That way the commenting and searching is much easier to do. Thanks!
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteNatalie, you do a really good job setting up a very clear argument and the providing points of proof. Very convincing. I think you could expand or delve deeper into your topic. Perhaps by defining justice and injustice which are very broad terms that you use frequently. Great Job!!!
ReplyDeleteEmma I think that you raised some really valid points from your argument.We all understand that for a democratic society to function, both the government and the people have to be on the same page.I appreciate your calling out on the responsibilities of a just ruler.I also appreciated the fact hat you went into the responsibilities of a just individual as well as a just ruler.I think that it would have been helpful to you if you had gone into more detail about the individual considering the fact that you spent quite a bit of time talking about rulers.It might have been a little better if you had bone over the qualities of self-discipline that you said that both the perfect state, and the perfect individual would posses.All in all it was a great argument.-Sarah
ReplyDeleteNot sure how to comment on Emma's post specifically because I am confused by blogs, but...
ReplyDeleteEM!
You said in the beginning of your post that an ideal ruler will be "unable to be lured by glory, power, wealth or other personal gain" which of course would be great, however wouldn't the ruler be stronger if he was lured by such things yet had the self mastery to control and put aside such longings? If he was not lured by them in the first place he wouldn't really need self-control to resist non existent temptations...
Also you said that the community/citizens will be happier when they commit unselfish acts--Plato's friend (Glaucon or Thrasymachus or whatever his name was) argues that people are happier and benefit more when they commit unjust acts and that people certainly will commit such acts if they can get away with it. So which makes a person happier?
excellence comment, Mols. Your thoughts on being lured and yet not giving in to glory wealth and personal gain are exactly what i was trying to convey in my description of the ideal ruler. thank you, i digress.
ReplyDeleteWhen we look at Plato's argument we are looking at the ground work for the creation of a perfect state. This state is there not for "the disproportionate happiness of any one class, but the greatest happiness of the whole..."(P.198) In that statement we find that Plato is arguing for the self-control of all citizens in order to make everything run smoothly. They also discuss what happens when a man of the state does things in his own interests instead of the interests of the whole. The example that would be the most appropriate would the example of the guardians. They would allow any man of the state to do what pleases him, and that in itself is fine when it concerns the average man who faces no real consequence for doing what pleases him; the issue is what happens when you let someone whose actions truly matter to societal function to do whatever he likes. That would be a situation that could cause societal chaos if it were a guardian, or a member of the government. The argument is "... but when the guardians of the laws and of the government are only seemingly and not real guardians, then see how they turn the state upside down; and on the other hand they alone have the power of giving order and happiness to the state."(P.199) The statement means that in any society the people usually look up to those who govern, and those who protect. It is the job of those who are in a position of power to protect the people who are subjected to their protection, or their laws. The job of the government is to protect its people, and to enforce the law. The perfect government should have the self-control and the discipline to know how to use their powers justly. It is absolutely vital for any state that both its government and its guardians have the self-discipline and control over their desires. It is all to easy for anyone in a position of power to get carried away, and begin to think that they can do whatever they want whenever they want. To remedy this everyone in a state must raise themselves to the highest moral standards, and everyone must be able to recognize their faults, and be able to acquire a sense of self-control in order to appropriate that perfect state.
ReplyDeleteThe idea for a perfect state is that the state is formed when "The intention was, that, in the case of the citizens generally, each individual should be put to the use for which nature intended him, one to work, and then every man would do his own business, and be one and not many; and so the city would be one and not many."(P.202) For citizens as well a the government it is important for everyone to have a sense of self-control. From the preceding statement we can gather that for the function of the state it is important that everyone has a job that is best suited to that person's natural abilities. The reason why that would work is because if everyone is doing what comes naturally then everyone in the state would have a job, and if everyone were to be treated equally then the state would be neither rich nor poor, and everyone would have a sense of self-mastery because everyone is doing what they are meant to be doing. If that were the case then the state would be prosperous because everyone would be unselfish and charitable because of the sense of equality that is gained when everyone has defeated their desires and is committed to the health of the whole, and not to the health of the few.
Plato argues that there are three parts of the soul: the spirited, the calculating, and the one which “loves, hungers, thirsts, and is agitated by the other desires” (439d). The one that desires is affiliated with temptation whereas the calculating one is the mental control that generally resists temptation; the man without self mastery is weaker in the calculating part of the soul. This could fit with the just/unjust theme of the entire book, as there is the inevitable temptation to perform unjust deeds as they are apparently more profitable than just deeds, yet the calculating part of the soul in a just person would overrule the lure of injustice, however profitable it may be and stay on the path of justice. The calculating part must rule, “since it is wise and has forethought about all the soul” (441c), though I somewhat disagree; I think that the desiring part may be the more instinctual. Plato seems to argue that temptation and wisdom are separate entities, yet it is also widely argued that instinct is always wise.
ReplyDeletePlato says (439b) about how a man who is thirsty “wishes nothing other than to drink, and strives for this and is impelled toward it”. The choice to not drink when thirsty is, however, frequently made, implying a great self mastery and a test of both the body’s and the soul’s endurance. Plato also mentions the several parts of the soul that request different things, like something in the soul (desire) requesting a drink and another part (calculation) because “the same thing at the same time and with respect to the same part” is the same and cannot be struggling with itself and divided, therefore the soul must be several parts. If the soul was all the same part, it would be one thing divided in disagreement and splitting several ways. (439c) Plato and Glaucon ultimately agree that justice is the man who is ruled by the calculating part of him that overrides the temptation and his integrity; the man who acts justly towards all and believes that his actions are good and righteous (443d).
Natalie you did a great job setting up that argument. It was very clear with lots of good detail. You could have expanded a bit more on your topic, but it very well written, and very interesting. Great job!
ReplyDeleteGood argument Mols, definitely brought up some crucial parts that i didn't catch at first, especially the part about the calculating part vs. the desiring part and which is more instinctual. also love the part that says "implying a great self mastery and a test of both the body’s and the soul’s endurance". you definitely answer the question, i just wish there was a little less quoting and more your own opinion (because obviously those were my favorite parts)
ReplyDelete